Acknowledging the Impact of Identity Within Social Change Movements (Part 2 of 2)

In part two, of this two-part transcript, clinical psychologist and organizational consultant, Roxy Manning, Ph.D., offers a way we can help people from marginalized groups free more of their energy for greater joy, meaning and contribution to our groups, social change movements, and organizations. Roxy and Mary Mackenzie also show that while there's often that risk of inadvertently creating more division within the organization or group, there are also ways to respond that would shift the status quo can help increase support, create a connection, find common ground, and provide greater care for all. Transcript from 2018 Summer of Peace, Finding Common Ground Summit This is part two. Here's Part one. Roxy: […]When I think about organizations that are working towards social change, one of the questions that often comes up is, "Who's doing what work? Who's putting what energy into the organization?" There often isn't a realization of how much energy the person from a targeted group, from a marginalized group might be putting in, in ways that are invisible, how much energy it takes just to show up and deal with these kinds of microaggressions, these kinds of experiences over and over and over again on top of the energy that they're putting out like everyone else who's there to do the work. As organizations, the more that we can attend to and minimize these experiences for people who join our organizations, the more we're freeing everyone up to be able to contribute fully in the ways that really would be joyful and meaningful to them. Philip: I just want to acknowledge this conversation is so rich and it's so spot-on not only for everyone in the summit, for all of us at The Shift Network. We're looking at these questions. We're looking at how to be more embodied, the type of organizations. I just want to acknowledge I'm really appreciating this and want to share it with our entire staff because we're looking at these questions. I'm going to go ahead and step back again because I know you have a demonstration coming up so I'll probably turn off the camera here. Just this is so spot-on. Thank you. Mary: Thanks, Philip. Roxy: Yes. One of the things that we wanted to do with this demonstration, I'm glad you mentioned it, Philip, is one of the things we hear often is that people struggle with, "How do I respond? Okay, so I'm in an organization. We're really trying to be inclusive and I see something happen. What do I do that's actually going to be supportive and create connection, find that common ground rather than create more division in our organization?" We want to give an example about something that comes up often and I was really excited to share this example because it's one that's personally relevant to me and that can feel a little bit tender. As a black woman, there's a huge stereotype in American society, in U.S. society that black women are loud and black women are angry. One of the things that I often sometimes unconsciously but sometimes consciously do is I'm always trying to track myself, "Am I being too loud? Will this be perceived as being too angry?" Oh, my goodness, it's such a draining place to be. The demonstration we wanted to give was what happens if someone says to me in a group, "Oh, my gosh! What you just said is way too loud. You're speaking way too loud and you're sounding really angry. We're a group and we're about peace, we're supposed to be about peace, and this isn't how we want to represent ourselves." We're going to first demonstrate Mary responding what she might do because there's several choices here. Mary could respond to me as an ally. Mary could respond to the person who spoke in this situation, or Mary can respond in some ways to the whole group. Mary, I'm going to ask you to respond if you are acting like an ally to me in this situation. On allyship that offers support to those in marginalized groups Mary: I'm imagining that I would do this privately then, not in front of the entire group, just because I think I would want to make sure that you were... I wouldn't want to put you on the spot even more. If somebody had just said, "Roxy, you sound angry," privately I might say, "Ouch! Roxy, I imagine you're wanting acceptance for different speech patterns and expressions to be welcome in our group, all kinds of expressions to be welcome in our group. Is that true for you?" Roxy: Yes, it's like this is how I'm speaking and this matters to me. Mary: Yes, and I imagine it's also scary to hear that comment in our group because knowing how often black women can be silenced and told that they sound angry when they're expressing their passion or their feelings about something. Roxy: Yes, thank you for naming that because there is something around how weary I am of trying to always moderate myself to match what I think other people are wanting of me. Mary: Yes, and wanting to trust that you don't have to do that. You don't have to moderate yourself in any way. You can express yourself the way you express yourself. We're a group of people that can hear that and accept that, and not just accept it but actually appreciate it. Roxy: Right. Something about the freedom to speak up in the way that is true and authentic for me and to know that that would be met and valued in our group is important to me. Mary: Yes. I just want you to know, Roxy, that that's important to me too, because I know if you're silenced, then we all have that potential of being silenced for whatever reason. I want that for myself, I want it for you and I want it for our group. Roxy: Thank you. This would be the first example of how we might use NVC in a situation like this where Mary is choosing to support me, the group member, privately to help me connect to what's important to me, what was painful for me in the situation that happened and why it was painful. It creates a space for me to have my authentic experience and not to minimize or start to question, "Am I wrong for thinking that this felt painful or felt sad?" Mary is offering support that helps group members know your experience is seen and you are valued still in this group. An allyship response at the group level: Coming in with responses that connect Mary: Then the next thing that I could do if I wanted to be an ally is to say something to the full group and maybe not to Roxy because I don't want to put her on the spot again. But I could say something to the person who made the statement that Roxy sounded like she was angry. Really I think I might start with "Ouch!" again and say something like, "Ouch! I feel concerned when I hear you make that statement to Roxy because I would like us to be a group where all forms of expression are welcome. I want to start by first checking out maybe where were you coming from by saying that in the first place? Is there a part of you that believes that speaking with kindness is the best strategy for crossing the differences that we're trying to work towards? Is that it for you?" Another question I could ask is, "Is it that you're afraid that if people speak to the depth of their emotion and their experience that somehow people will see us as an angry group and they won't give us any attention at all or they won't take us seriously?" Those are two options that I think I could say to the person who made the comment to Roxy in the first place. Roxy: Yes. What's important to me about saying these two comments is that it's acknowledging, again this is going back to what you said at the beginning, Mary, that anytime someone says something, they're speaking out of a value that's important. They're not speaking to wound us or hurt us but they're truly coming from a place of connection to their values. You're acknowledging the values and needs that might have driven this person to make those comments. Those are comments and those are values that I could also agree with. I also would want our group to be taken seriously. I would also want us to find common ground and to find ways to connect across differences, but I wouldn't want to do it at such a cost to me or to others like me in the group. Allyship that reveals our values, and the less visible context Mary: Then the third way that I think a person could speak up in a situation like that to be an ally to Roxy is to actually not address Roxy specifically or the person who made the statement. Then the third way is just making a general statement to express my own values in the situation. In that way, I could say, "I just want to acknowledge that when Roxy spoke up, I didn't hear anger. I heard her speaking up for her passion and expressing her feelings in the situation. I would really like us to be an organization that values all expressions and doesn't try to quiet some people. I also feel scared when I heard the statement because I know that black women oftentimes are told that they sound angry when they're expressing their emotions, and I want to make sure that we're careful about that in caring and making sure that our black women in the group have a place to express their emotions just like the rest of us. I'm curious. Does anybody else feel similarly as I do?" Roxy: What's really powerful for me in imagining you or anyone saying something like this in an organization is that it's making prominent issues that are often just hidden, often brushed away, and when those issues are brushed away, the impact is greatest on the people who have to deal with them continuously. The courage that it takes to speak up and to name these issues and to name them as your own helps to support those in the group who might be tired, who might feel more on the spot if I were speaking up for myself and once again putting myself out there. It's a risk for me to speak up when I might already feel that the way I'm speaking up, that the way that I am in the world isn't valued. This is in my mind truly being an ally, by taking on the risk of speaking up and knowing that not everyone might agree with you or there might be some backlash. Creating more of the kind of world we want to live in Mary: I can say for myself having spent many years not speaking up because I was afraid of that backlash that you just spoke to, Roxy, what I realized today is that in itself creates backlash. It's just that it creates a backlash that's common, and so it doesn't stand out quite as much. But still it creates a backlash, and I want to be an ally today that is willing to act towards the life I want to have and life experience I want to have today. The cost of silence is less inclusion and less belonging -- and higher costly confusion about what you, or the group, does or doesn’t support Roxy: Mary, I just got this wave of relief hearing you say that because, especially as we talk about the impact of our identities in social change movements, this is the one place that I hear over and over and over again that especially people of color have an issue with. As one of the very visible nonviolent communication trainers of color globally, I've had the experience over and over and over again of people coming to me and saying, "This happened in a group I was in and no one said anything, and I'm never going back." We often don't understand why are people not coming back? I hear a lot of people who want to be allies, who want to have inclusive groups saying, "We invited this person from this group and they came to one session and they never came back." There's also often a miss around more people speaking up when these kinds of issues happened, or was the person feeling more alone and also worried, are other people agreeing with what just happened? There is a huge cost when we're silent. One of the things NVC offers is a way to speak up that holds care both for the experience of the person who's impacted and the person who spoke in a way that might not have been what they intended, might not have had the consequence that they intended. Thank you. Seeing beyond “the generic representative” of the marginalized group, to connect to the specific person Roxy: I wonder if we can talk a little bit some more about some of the other challenges that come when we try to make more inclusive organizations. I have gotten really excited about this area recently, one of the challenges is how do we actually create more inclusive organizations? I've had people coming up to me and saying, "Hey, I'm doing this workshop and I'd love to have you come because I really want to have a black person speak to these issues." That's a really painful thing to hear in some ways because when I hear that, I immediately start to question, "Are you wanting me to speak because I, Roxy, have something of value to share that's grounded in my experience, in my expertise? Or are you just wanting a generic black voice?" There's so many issues with that latter possibility. The black experience is huge. It's diverse. As Philip said at the beginning of this interview, I'm Afro-Caribbean, which is different than Afro-American and has a very different experience of what it means. When people invite folks to join their organization because they want someone who's just from that group without any sort of specificity, it's really confusing what exactly of my being black, my being a woman, my being gay, whatever part of my identity you're reaching out to, what is it that you're wanting me to contribute to your group? One of the pitfalls that I often want to bring people's attention to is how confusing that lack of specificity is if it's just connected to my identity. It sounds like a catch-22. We want to have more inclusive organizations. I want to invite you because you're a person of color, you're gay, or whatever that identity is, but now I'm hearing that that has a problem because it's not very specific. We don't actually know what that means. I think both of those, this dilemma is the one that we need to be able to hold as we start thinking about having more inclusive organizations. Philip: I just want to jump in here again, Roxy and Mary. I am so much appreciating this conversation because it's one that The Shift Network has run into at different times. We'll receive comments that we don't have enough diversity and they will reach out, so it's a balance. Then what you say about diversity, Afro-Caribbean is different than other. Then we will have speakers where there's not enough in terms of shade of color but will still have diversity, will have 30% or 40% diversity but it's not the color that people are looking for. What I'm appreciating here is the wisdom on how to even just engage in a conversation. That's the part where I think it's easy not to know how to engage in a skillful way. What I'm appreciating in what you're offering is being aware that everyone has values, speaking to those values, and then also acknowledging the experience, my feeling experiences and then also the other person's, other people's feelings and experiences. It feels like the invitation is here is how to skillfully engage in these conversations. I'm really appreciating hearing what your experience is, Roxy, of different people inviting you to different conversations or what it could be for other people of color. I just want to acknowledge again the relevance of this and I'm also going to bring our attention to time. We're going to need to wrap up in a little bit but just some of the core nuggets, Roxy, we're getting that. It's like how to skillfully engage in these conversations and also when inviting people for more than just an identity, the depth of the experience of the person and you with a Ph.D. all this experience, so just a little bit more on that, an invitation here for people. Roxy: Thank you, yes. I know we're getting short on time so I just wanted to check in with Mary because I would love for her to speak a little bit about the flipside of this. There are the challenges that I have when I receive these invitations that are nonspecific but there's also the vulnerability of being the person making those invitations and how to navigate that. Mary: Yes, I'd be happy to, Roxy. When you and I were talking about what we were going to offer today, I learned so much in that conversation. Yes, there was a time not too long ago where I wanted to have a particular online conference and I wanted it to be a very diverse group. I did exactly what you said not to do today. I didn't know otherwise then but I set out to try to find people of color, people from different countries. I was looking for a variety of diversity. Gender is actually pretty easy in the nonviolent communication world but I was looking for gender, location in the world, skin color, all kinds of things. I was inviting total strangers to our conference because other people, first, I didn't know where they were. I didn't know where these people were, especially people of color outside the U.S. I was sending emails out to friends saying, "Okay, this is what I'm trying to do." I got lots of names so I was contacting total strangers and inviting them but I wasn't connected to the value and the need behind, as you said, that's so important, why I was inviting them. I would make an entirely different invitation today and to just take the time to figure out why do I want to have people of color? It's not just because I want to look good or because I want to say we did it. There has to be more value attached to it. What do I think these people from different groups will bring to the conference? What kind of voice will they bring that wouldn't be there without them? I need to make my invitations much more connected to that, each as individuals. I have to say that that in and of itself takes a little bit of thought for me because I haven't actually thought of it that way. I'm saying this because I imagine I'm not the only one. I imagine there are people listening to this right now that have said, "Yes, we're just trying to get more people of color in the group," or "We're just trying to get more women in the group," but without that attachment to the deeper "why," I think it loses some of its strength. It definitely, I think, loses the opportunity for people to want to join us. Roxy: Yes, and I just got such a strong connection to[...], it also loses the connection to that person's humanity. All of a sudden, they just become this token, this example of that group rather than this individual person in front of you. Mary: We're back to the beginning again, back to whatever we're doing in trying to be connected to our humanity and the humanity of the other. When we do that, we make better decisions all along the way. It's one way to think about it anyway. Finding more resources on NVC, Power & Privilege Philip: Interesting. Well, my friends, this is so rich. Mary: I know it's hard to stop. Philip: Well, it is. It is. It's so rich. First, tell people a little bit how they can find out more about nonviolent communication because having the intention of wanting to be able to connect, wanting to be able to move beyond our own unconscious biases, being able to be more skillful and then having tools to be able to do that [are different things]. Nonviolent communication is so well proven. It's used around the world. Let people know how they can learn, what book they should read, nonviolent communication. We're all learning here so please tell us how people can find out more and where they can go. Mary: Thanks, Philip. I'd be happy to. First, our international office, which is Marshall Rosenberg's organization that he started many years, is the Center for Nonviolent Communication. You can find them online at CNVC.org. You can find Roxy at BayNVC.org and you can find me at NVCAcademy.com. You also can look locally. There are trainers all over the world, over 600 of us all over the world. You can go to the international offices site, CNVC.org, and you can look for your local area and see if there are trainers near you. The NVC Academy is an online school for learning NVC so that's a place where you can learn online. There's lots and lots of offerings in person, however, all over the world. Then the books that I would recommend, Marshall Rosenberg has written many books. The one book that I would recommend for learning NVC is Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life. Then of course I'd recommend my book which is a daily meditation for living NVC, which is Peaceful Living: Daily Meditations for Living with Love, Healing and Compassion. Philip: Roxy, I believe you have a course coming up also. Roxy: I am doing a course with NVC Academy, actually. In September, I believe we begin. Mary, do you remember the exact title? I remember you loving the title. Mary: Yes, I do love the title. I'll look it up. Roxy: The course will be around looking at how to actually take this work on looking at power [and] privilege in these kinds of systems and use NVC to change how to transform those dialogues. Mary: Yes, Roxy's course is called, wait for it. Philip: While you're looking for that, I just want to say again it's just nice to be able to have such a really well-proven methodology that we can engage. We can all become more skillful. We can translate our intention to be doing better and to do well and to make connections. We can all become more skillful at it. I just really want to acknowledge that and both of your years and years of commitment in this area. The need for nonviolent communication is greater now probably than ever before. With just the polarization, the anger and fear we see in the news, people may not realize that there's a whole network of training centers around the world, and so we want to be able to raise attention to these resources. Did you find the name of the course there, Mary? Mary: I did. It's called "Social Change: A Radical Transformation of Diversity and Inclusion." It is going to be an excellent course and it's about teaching people how to deal with issues that come up. It's for teachers and NVC trainers and people who run groups. It starts September 25th. Philip: Great! You can find that again where? Where can we find that? Mary: On the NVC Academy. Philip: NVC Academy. Mary: NVCAcademy.com Common ground is found in the shared risk we take to shift the status quo Philip: There's so much we can unpack in this, and again I just want to echo the relevance, the relevance for everyone listening, for the relevance where the United States or the world is at this time, the relevance in our life here of The Shift Network and I'm just really appreciating. Any closing comments from either of you? Yes, any closing comments here for our listeners? Roxy: I think what I would want to say in closing is to encourage people to risk. It's so easy to be afraid that I'm going to speak up, I'm going to try to make things better and actually make it worse. People of color, women, people from marginalized groups are risking every single moment. When you risk with us it feels like companionship. If we want to find common ground, risk. Philip: Thank you, Roxy. Mary: Thank you, Roxy, for saying that. I just want to say one other thing and that is that I think we are being asked to be different than anything we've ever seen before. That is what this particular time is calling us to and that's why it's so painful because we haven't seen it modeled very much. All of us who are trying to live differently and trying to be more inclusive and trying to speak to the microaggressions that Roxy was speaking of, all of us are being asked to do that in a way that we haven't seen modeled before. It's a new way of being. It is risky and it's worth the risk because of the status quo. The other option is status quo. Philip: I want to thank you for just naming the risk. One of our other speakers also talked about there's the comfort zone and then there's the risk on comfort zone and then there's the danger zone, not to go into the danger but at least leaving the comfort zone into the area where I'm a little bit less comfortable on a new area. You're right, Mary, that the world is in great need for all of us to take more risk. I know I bumble and stumble quite a bit and you both have been really gracious in the preparation for this session. Again, I just want to acknowledge that people know this was planned months in advance. You both put a lot of time and energy into it. I just really want to acknowledge you again. I'm just really deeply grateful for both of you. Roxy: Thank you. Mary: Thank you, Philip. Thank you so much for having us. Philip: Yes, and so for everyone listening, it's time to crack open a nonviolent communication book if you haven't done so already. For a trainer in your area, sign up for Roxy's course in September, other courses at the Nonviolent Communication Academy, and stay tuned because we're going to be having more explorations of finding common ground. Day three we'll be going into the collective and you can see how this all builds upon itself. We've got the personal, the interpersonal and the skill-building on how to communicate nonviolently, and then the systems, looking at collective changes. There's a lot of hope and inspiration. There's a lot of homework for all of us. Again, engage with us on social media, Shift Network's Facebook page, Twitter, and be sure to use hashtag #SummerofPeace. My co-host Sister Jenna will be back with us in the upcoming sessions. Thank you all for being with us.Visit Roxy Manning’s website for more on her work: www.roxannemanning.comVisit Mary MacKenzie’s website for more on her work: www.peaceworkshop.org This interview was part of the 2018 Summer of Peace, Finding Common Ground Summit, a free online event featuring how to build bridges for personal and collective transformation. For more information, please visit www.summerofpeacesummit.com. This recording is a copyright of The Shift Network. All rights reserved.